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Post by scaeascaea on Oct 5, 2009 13:11:32 GMT -5
Sesshoumaru was the first person, er, creature? to invent the concept of changing their clothes in feudal-age Japan!
Now, he didn't start the trend with anything egregious, as we all know, he's not really into pushing the social boundaries very much. Very proper and all, but he does change his armor a little. He's got a stone spikie mantle, a metal spikie mantle, and a bone spikie mantle.
Cool, eh?
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Post by Patches on Oct 5, 2009 14:57:27 GMT -5
1) Why did this merit a new thread?
2) Why is this "breaking news"?
3) What the HECK are you talking about?
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Post by hanyounomiko on Oct 5, 2009 15:20:38 GMT -5
...what? First off, Sesshoumaru only has one breastplate/shoulder armor combo. It uses his youki to regenerate (according to the profile book). He never changes his armor at any point. If you count the 3rd movie, he changes his kimono, but even then he never changes his armor. Second...what? Other characters change their clothes more frequently than Sesshoumaru.
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Post by scaeascaea on Oct 6, 2009 13:24:46 GMT -5
1) This merits a new thread because I coudn't think of anywhere else to put it.
2) This is "breaking news" because calling something "breaking news" when it's about the Feudal age amuses me.
3) What I'm talking about:
My friends and I were sittin' 'round one day looking at a poster of the Inu Yasha with lots of cast members on it, including a large Sesshoumaru, equal to Inu Yasha, in the back ground for no real apparent reason (all the other cast are Inu Yasha's little possie) and we were wondering: what is that armour mad out of? Sometimes it looks like metal. Sometimes it looks like bone. Sometimes it looks like stone. So we figured, he must have at least 3 of them lyin' around somewhere, right? Yep, right. That's the only logical explanation. So I went with it. So, perhaps, hanyounomiko, he changes his armour with every page! (not really)
OLT: And the "Profile Book" (if it's the one I've seen) is filled with more continuity errors then Star Wars. It doesn't count as a good source.
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Post by hanyounomiko on Oct 6, 2009 20:57:29 GMT -5
The profile book is full of editing issues and misprints, NOT continuity issues. The problem with it is on the American side, with placing some information in the wrong places. However, the information present, in proper context, doesn't contradict canon and was written under Rumiko Takahashi's direct supervision. It is perfectly valid as a good source, and I have the Japanese version in addition to the American to back that fact up. Also, I can't tell, but I feel like you must be being facetious, since the whole hypothesis is so silly and full of holes. If you ARE serious, though, "social boundaries" for upper social strata in Japan at the time wouldn't have disallowed changing clothes. In fact, although people were more conservative in the Feudal period than in, say, the Heian, rich people paid a LOT of attention to arranging their outfits by seasons and other time-based standards. It would have been strange for someone with the means to dress like Sesshoumaru to NOT change his clothes. The breastplate, however, which is what you claim he changes, is unlikely to be changed as Sesshoumaru would likely have received that breastplate as a coming-of-age thing and would have little reason to wear a different one. And even if he had a different one, where would he be keeping it? Stone armor, incidentally, would be incredibly difficult to make as well as being much more brittle than metal or bone, thus being incredibly impractical. Given Sesshoumaru's circumstances, bone (similar to Hiraikotsu) or cast iron seem the most likely candidates. The spikes also look like they might be applied rather than one solid piece with the breastplace, so they might also be made of demon claws or something of the like, in which case they would be keratin. Either way, I think taking the differences in painting styles between pieces as indication of different materials is just silly. If, however, you're being facetious, please ignore all but the first paragraph of this post.
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Post by scaeascaea on Oct 7, 2009 15:41:45 GMT -5
BUT: It is not really normal for cartoon characters of the feudal age (or of any era, really) to change their clothes. Ever. Sessy (I'm tired of looking up how to spell that name. I have to every time) is breaking some real boundaries there.
If it really is just a regeneration thing, then I suppose the material would actually be "flesh".... Whatever that means....
...So then I guess none of the demons wear clothes. They just have removable parts of their person.
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Post by concoidialfracture on Oct 7, 2009 15:45:57 GMT -5
The profile book is full of editing issues and misprints, NOT continuity issues. The problem with it is on the American side, with placing some information in the wrong places. However, the information present, in proper context, doesn't contradict canon and was written under Rumiko Takahashi's direct supervision. It is perfectly valid as a good source, and I have the Japanese version in addition to the American to back that fact up. This actually sounds like a pretty big continuity error to me: "Tetsusaiga chooses its owner. When Sesshomaru tried to wield it, it held him down with its power. To use it requires a heart that cares for others or the heart of Inuyasha himself... I suppose it needs half-demon power too." I suppose it COULD be an editing error, but even if you're VIZ, it's REALLY hard to mess up that badly. Given your very true statement there, I'm more inclined to think that it IS stone. It breaks in almost EVERY battle he's in.
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Post by milareppa on Oct 7, 2009 18:12:20 GMT -5
Well, I don't even understand that statement, it doesn't make sense. Kagome once said that even if Sesshoumaru was capable of wielding Tenseiga, he would not be pleased to possess the ability. I think why is obvious - Tenseiga is proof to anyone that knows about the sword that the wielder possesses a compassionate heart. Sesshoumaru really doesn't like people knowing that, yet Tenseiga screams it to the world. Whether or not Sesshoumaru wanted to possess one, he has a compassionate heart. In the early days he might have been as cold-hearted as he possibly could be, to the extent of even lying to himself about it, but it doesn't change the truth. Tenseiga accepted him as its true master long before Sesshoumaru ever started to responding to even twinges of compassion, which means he's always been capable of compassion (even if he wasn't initially displaying it). Which means Sesshoumaru would possess the ability to wield Tessaiga. I don't think it's wrong to say wielding Tessaiga requires a compassionate heart just because Sesshoumaru could use it, I think that actually reveals more about Sesshoumaru's heart than the editing abilities of Viz - this subject was raised in the manga itself, after all.
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Post by hanyounomiko on Oct 7, 2009 20:31:37 GMT -5
The profile book is full of editing issues and misprints, NOT continuity issues. The problem with it is on the American side, with placing some information in the wrong places. However, the information present, in proper context, doesn't contradict canon and was written under Rumiko Takahashi's direct supervision. It is perfectly valid as a good source, and I have the Japanese version in addition to the American to back that fact up. This actually sounds like a pretty big continuity error to me: "Tetsusaiga chooses its owner. When Sesshomaru tried to wield it, it held him down with its power. To use it requires a heart that cares for others or the heart of Inuyasha himself... I suppose it needs half-demon power too." I suppose it COULD be an editing error, but even if you're VIZ, it's REALLY hard to mess up that badly. I assumed that was the profiles book being deliberately vague due to Takahashi being a little inconsistant, or that she isn't entirely sure how it works either. Even within the series itself they have the same problem. For example, at the beginning of the series, it's said Inu-Yasha can only wield it because he's compassionate, and yet it doesn't shock Naraku due to his halfbreed status. Meanwhile, it still rejects Sesshoumaru even once he's demonstrated compassion, yet Inu-Papa can wield it while being full youkai (granted, it's made out of his fang). I gathered that it had somehow been intended specifically for Inu-Yasha and Tetsusaiga knew that, but because Naraku was a hanyou it couldn't actively reject him.
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Post by concoidialfracture on Oct 8, 2009 14:04:10 GMT -5
Funny, I'm not sure what statement you're talking about.
As for whether or not Sesshoumaru's compassion is revealed through using Tessaiga, there's the little issue of the contradiction of the series itself. To make Tessaiga work in the first place, Inuyasha himself had to have the desire to protect Kagome, but somehow, when Sesshoumaru was swinging it around, he didn't have to have anyone to protect? He just wanted to kill everyone in the vicinity and show off. He wasn't compassionate then, and he certainly didn't have the desire to protect anyone, and in fact almost killed Jaken because he was being a jerk. His intentions were well reflected by his actions, and his intentions were to be as big of an @$$hole as possible. If he had a compassionate instinct at that point in time, don't you think it would have been a little bit more difficult to turn off than it was? Not to mention.... his name is SESSHOUMARU for pity's sake. He was originally a VILLAIN in the story. And in the very profiles book we're trying to defend, it says that no one is held dear to him at the beginning of his profile. I mean to say, just because he's capable of being compassionate doesn't necessarily mean that it's in his heart and an inescapable part of his nature. If it was, he wouldn't do more than half the things he does.
I think the explanation hanyounomiko used is far more likely. Which, to me, is very sad. It shows that Takahashi isn't paying nearly as much attention to her characters as we are, and she's the one that should know the most about them. Fine, we'll write off this statement because she's the author, even though she shouldn't be making statements like that BECAUSE she's the author. I mean, if I were to say something so blatantly contradictory to what I've written, you guys would have a field day and ridicule me to no end. And rightly so.
Maybe I should write my own story in that fashion. Then people would think it's the greatest thing ever. Worst case scenario is that I would end up being the resident moron, which is pretty much my perpetual state of social being anyway, so it won't be much different than how things are now. *shrug*
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Post by milareppa on Oct 8, 2009 17:44:28 GMT -5
You're going to have to remind me of when Naraku ever wielded Tessaiga. I know he used it against Sango, but he used it as an ordinary sword - the sword never activated. So I don't think there's a lack of consistency there - he's hanyou, so the barrier won't reject him, but he never activated the sword, so the issue of a compassionate heart doesn't crop up (or maybe he tried and failed, we just don't know).
I don't think Naraku was really interested in possessing Tessaiga to use anyway, he just wanted it separated from Inuyasha. However, I think that if had tried to activate the sword, it would have simply remained unresponsive. The barrier only reacts to full-youkai.
Tessaiga itself has never truly rejected Sesshoumaru, even if it's accepted Inuyasha as its true master - remember the one time he did use it, he used it without any trouble at all. Kaze no Kizu on demand, and Inuyasha hadn't even learned at that point what Kaze no Kizu even was. It was the barrier that rejected Sesshoumaru, and that barrier seemed to be a youkai-repelling barrier, specifically designed to repel full-blooded youkai. I got the impression that barrier wasn't an intrinsic part of Tessaiga, it was cast onto the sword.
As a result of the fact that it seems to be a spell, it would make sense that Inuyasha's father could wield it - including the fact it's his own fang anyway. I don't see a problem with that. He would have bespelled it to repel youkai when he was ready to set it in the plinth awaiting Inuyasha's arrival.
The sentence you quoted. I had trouble interpreting it.
I really don't think that was a contradiction - that was proof of why Tessaiga needed a youkai-repelling barrier to prevent Sesshoumaru hanging onto the sword. In Sesshoumaru's hands, Kaze no Kizu did more damage than it has ever done in Inuyasha's hands. Given what we've seen of Bakusaiga, I think there's a good reason for that - Sesshoumaru is simply too powerful for Tessaiga.
Even if he could wield Tessaiga, the sword would be ultimately useless to him - he'd simply overwhelm the sword one day in battle and the thing would shatter pointlessly - exactly as had happened with Toukijin (at least it was the power of compassion that shattered Toukijin, but still, Sesshoumaru overwhelmed his sword and broke it - Tessaiga would have shared the same fate).
In other words, while the rule is that a compassionate heart should be what is required to activate the sword, if you're as strong as Sesshoumaru (and have his unique talent for swords - and it does seem to be unique, since he can shock even Toutousai with his ability and understand Tessaiga's new powers without even touching the sword) then you can simply overwhelm the sword with the strength of your own youki and control the blade as you please - and we know that he definitely could do this, because that's how he mastered Toukijin, a sword designed to be Tessaiga's equal. If he could completely overwhelm a sword that was Tessaiga's equal, then it's easy to assume that he could overwhelm Tessaiga itself.
This therefore makes Dad's decision to bespell Tessaiga with a youkai-repelling barrier to keep Sesshoumaru away a very sensible thing to do - it means Dad always knew what Sesshoumaru was capable of.
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Post by hanyounomiko on Oct 8, 2009 17:52:10 GMT -5
Funny, I'm not sure what statement you're talking about. As for whether or not Sesshoumaru's compassion is revealed through using Tessaiga, there's the little issue of the contradiction of the series itself. To make Tessaiga work in the first place, Inuyasha himself had to have the desire to protect Kagome, but somehow, when Sesshoumaru was swinging it around, he didn't have to have anyone to protect? Well, it's obvious that Tetsusaiga needs youkai power to work properly (since Inu-Yasha can't use it in human form), so Sesshoumaru would be able to transform it and everything, but the sword actively wanted him to GTFO because he was a jerk (but, at that moment, couldn't shock him because it was in contact with a human hand, not Sesshoumaru's actual person). Sesshoumaru also had the advantage of having seen Tetsusaiga in action before and knowing how it worked. He was already aware of the kaze no kizu so he knew how to sniff it out. He's also more aware of his own youki due to being a full youkai so he'd know how to best utilize a youki-based weapon. I think the explanation hanyounomiko used is far more likely. Which, to me, is very sad. It shows that Takahashi isn't paying nearly as much attention to her characters as we are, and she's the one that should know the most about them. Maybe I should write my own story in that fashion. Then people would think it's the greatest thing ever. Worst case scenario is that I would end up being the resident moron, which is pretty much my perpetual state of social being anyway, so it won't be much different than how things are now. *shrug* I think we've already established from other threads that fans are WAAAAAAAAAAY more anal than authors, and that seems to be a general trend in fandom in general, not just Inu-Yasha. I mean, Takahashi spent like 12 years writing that series. Have you ever spent twelve years writing something? Sometimes you just forget shit. I mean, we're talking about some really stupid little details here. It's not like most people sit down and hammer out all of the little details ahead of time, so I'm SURE there've been some moments where Takahashi needed Tetsusaiga to have a specific role, and as long as it wasn't a totally ridiculous, blatant contradiction, it came down to "Whatever, nobody's going to pay that much attention." All of the Tetsusaiga contradictions come from points where she was trying to say something about the characters anyway; Inu-Yasha needs to accept his human part, Inu-Yasha is using Tetsusaiga wrong because he doesn't know shit about Kaze no Kizu, and Naraku is a hanyou, for example. Tetsusaiga's exact wielder preference is less important than showing that information. EDIT: You're going to have to remind me of when Naraku ever wielded Tessaiga. I know he used it against Sango, but he used it as an ordinary sword - the sword never activated. So I don't think there's a lack of consistency there - he's hanyou, so the barrier won't reject him, but he never activated the sword, so the issue of a compassionate heart doesn't crop up (or maybe he tried and failed, we just don't know). That's actually what I meant, but apparently failed to express well. Thus why I said "doesn't shock Naraku" rather than "Naraku can wield." Also disclaimer: I know it's technically supposed to be "Tessaiga" but I will continue to call it "Tetsusaiga" out of habit and feeling weird typing it the other way.
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Post by milareppa on Oct 9, 2009 18:10:23 GMT -5
Sesshoumaru also had the advantage of having seen Tetsusaiga in action before and knowing how it worked. He was already aware of the kaze no kizu so he knew how to sniff it out. I'm suspicious about this - about Sesshoumaru, that is. Although it's certainly conceivable that Sesshoumaru had indeed seen Tessaiga in action before, I don't think him knowing how to use Kaze no Kizu was as simple as him knowing about it. Remember, Toutousai was downright shocked that Sesshoumaru knew about Kaze no Kizu. He acted like someone with Sesshoumaru's lack of compassion simply shouldn't know a thing about this power or how to connect with it. I think there's a clue in Toutousai's words as to why - Toutousai and Inuyasha's companions talk about the Kaze no Kizu in terms of "reading" it or "seeing" it. Sesshoumaru is more ambiguous when he talks about it. Of course, later we learn why - Inuyasha has to be blinded before he realises he shouldn't be trying to spot it, he should be trying to smell it. As a hanyou, it makes sense that Inuyasha would be equally likely to rely on his nose or eyes to understand something. Sesshoumaru, as a full-blooded dog youkai, is much more likely to trying and understand something with his nose first and eyes later - it's why Naraku's illusions later on don't bother him, because no matter what his eyes tell him, his nose is what he trusts and relies most upon. Toutousai may have understood what Kaze no Kizu was, but I don't think he knew that a dog-youkai reads it with a nose rather than eyes. At least not until Inuyasha mastered it while blind, anyway. For Toutousai to have been shocked that Sesshoumaru already understood exactly what Kaze no Kizu was and how to use it, suggests that Sesshoumaru should not have realistically been able to... unless he had a unique understanding of swords that surpasses what even Toutousai would expect to see. And we do indeed see this time and again in the manga: Sesshoumaru understands Kaze no Kizu before he ever holds Tessaiga. He understands Toukijin before he ever touches the sword. He understands exactly what Inuyasha is doing wrong with Dragon-Scaled Tessaiga despite only witnessing Inuyasha use that power twice. The very first time he ever tries to use Tenseiga properly, he understands fully what to do to activate the healing power. The very first time he's given the chance to use Tenseiga as a weapon, he masters it instantly (leaving Toutousai very disgruntled). The very first time he decides to use Tenseiga's ultimate technique (saving a hundred lives with a single swing), he does so without any trouble at all. The very first time he swings Bakusaiga, he knows exactly what he's doing with the sword. The only time he has ever had trouble understanding a sword was when he was trying to strengthen Meidou Zangetsuha. And that was because he was doing everything right with the sword and it still wasn't working - the reason being that he never valued the worth of a heart in battle, and he therefore misinterpreted Toutousai's words: he thought Toutousai told him to strengthen Meidou Zangetsuha to reach the circle, but Toutousai was really saying he had to strengthen his compassion. So it wasn't his sword-mastery that was the problem, it was his mastery of his own heart that caused the trouble. I think, ultimately, this unique talent with swords is why his true weapon manifested as a sword, and possibly explains his obsession with obtaining a sword... it's not just in his nature to fight with a sword, it's in his very soul.
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ladyjanegrey
Full Member
"I GOTTA keep it together!"
Posts: 171
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Post by ladyjanegrey on Oct 9, 2009 20:27:50 GMT -5
I think, ultimately, this unique talent with swords is why his true weapon manifested as a sword, and possibly explains his obsession with obtaining a sword... it's not just in his nature to fight with a sword, it's in his very soul. A true samurai, in other words.
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Post by concoidialfracture on Oct 10, 2009 12:37:20 GMT -5
I really don't think that was a contradiction - that was proof of why Tessaiga needed a youkai-repelling barrier to prevent Sesshoumaru hanging onto the sword. In Sesshoumaru's hands, Kaze no Kizu did more damage than it has ever done in Inuyasha's hands. Given what we've seen of Bakusaiga, I think there's a good reason for that - Sesshoumaru is simply too powerful for Tessaiga. Even if he could wield Tessaiga, the sword would be ultimately useless to him - he'd simply overwhelm the sword one day in battle and the thing would shatter pointlessly - exactly as had happened with Toukijin (at least it was the power of compassion that shattered Toukijin, but still, Sesshoumaru overwhelmed his sword and broke it - Tessaiga would have shared the same fate). In other words, while the rule is that a compassionate heart should be what is required to activate the sword, if you're as strong as Sesshoumaru (and have his unique talent for swords - and it does seem to be unique, since he can shock even Toutousai with his ability and understand Tessaiga's new powers without even touching the sword) then you can simply overwhelm the sword with the strength of your own youki and control the blade as you please - and we know that he definitely could do this, because that's how he mastered Toukijin, a sword designed to be Tessaiga's equal. If he could completely overwhelm a sword that was Tessaiga's equal, then it's easy to assume that he could overwhelm Tessaiga itself. This therefore makes Dad's decision to bespell Tessaiga with a youkai-repelling barrier to keep Sesshoumaru away a very sensible thing to do - it means Dad always knew what Sesshoumaru was capable of. But, again quoting Takahashi, from the same statement, in fact, she said Sesshoumaru was "held down with its power." That suggests to me that it was exactly the opposite of what you said, but your eplanation is far more sufficient, in my opinion. Most people don't "hammer out all the little details ahead of time" but there are things called OUTLINES that she obviously didn't employ. As a matter of fact, I have spent close to TEN years writing something, but I was always going back and forth to make sure I remembered all the significant little things, especially when I deviated a little from my outline. Besides, it's not a minor detail that doesn't matter, Tessaiga is one of her CHARACTERS. In fact, I was surprised to not see a character profile for the sword, because the way it works and evolves is just as important as when Inuyasha does the same. She should know how that thing works and why it does what it does. And the fact that she forgot doesn't stop it from being a continuity error. It just means that she put one out there without knowing it.
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