ladyjanegrey
Full Member
"I GOTTA keep it together!"
Posts: 171
|
Post by ladyjanegrey on Feb 16, 2009 0:46:31 GMT -5
Domestic Youkai? Hello! I got bored, so I thought I would put down some speculations I had about some things I had read/seen in the manga/anime. I will TRY to be canon(no promises), so that why I posted this under Manga. There probably will be spoilers, so I warn you ahead of time. If anybody wants to jump in, come on in, the water is fine! I may update as I gather my thoughts(what few of them there are!). ;D I was looking over some old threads and read the one about Toutou-sai. That is what got me into this. The posters( ?) were trying to decide what kind of youkai he was. It came down to the decision that he was a fire youkai, although there wasn't any specific reasons given. I agreed, and put down my thoughts here. Consider the evidence: 1. Toutou-sai can not only breath fire, he can control it's strength, and put it to use. 2. He lives in a volcanic environment; i.e. molten lava, smoke, ashes, and nothing growing there. 3. What better than a fire youkai to be able to forge swords and other objects of power. I also think that considering his "occupation," he is probably a "domesticated" fire youkai, rather than a "wild" fire youkai. By the way, what would you call him in Japanese?
|
|
|
Post by Inu-papa on Feb 16, 2009 5:28:12 GMT -5
I don't really think there need to be "kinds" of youkai. I mean, what "kind" of youkai was Shishinki? Or Yourei Taisei? Or Muonna? I think some of them just "exist" with certain abilities but aren't really related directly to some specific object or idea.
|
|
ladyjanegrey
Full Member
"I GOTTA keep it together!"
Posts: 171
|
Post by ladyjanegrey on Feb 16, 2009 17:06:23 GMT -5
Oh I agree. There seem to be many youkai that are, hmm.., youkai in general? They just seem to come from the spiritual nature of all things, and simply exist in the world. Take, for example, the rabble of demons that surround Naraku. They seem to be a general mishmash of creatures, low level, and probably not very intelligent. But there are many which are very specific beings, which have been obviously influenced by very specific "influences." Obvious example: inu youkai (haha). Sesshoumaru is definitely a "Dog Demon," and not a "cat demon." And InuYasha, although he doesn't like his ears (sign of a hanyou, you know), he gets very angry when someone calls them "cats ears." And there are the neko-mata (cat), ookami youkai (wolf), and the kitsune (fox), and many others. And a certain type of nature spirit, say fire, or tree, would become a specific type of youkai, I.e. Toutou-sai: fire youkai; Bokuseno: magnolia tree youkai. In fact, the Muonna is a specific type of being. I consider it more of a spirit, than a youkai, but it specifically is created from the grief and regrets of mothers who have lost their children to war and other tragedies. Perhaps with Yourei Taisei, the "ability" to see energies, is the Youkai itself? And after looking up a little info on Shishinki, maybe I'll do a post on him later. There are many different kinds of living creatures: trees, cats, dogs, humans; so I would say that if you look closely, there are many different kinds of spirit creatures: trees, cats, fire and even inanimate objects (think Yura). Just because we don't have enough information to give us an idea on what a youkai might be, doesn't mean it isn't "Something." Remember, most of this is speculation that came into my head when reading the manga, and/or watching the anime. So I went and looked up the information I remembered, and then figured how it "might" pertain a character. Thanks Inu-papa, your post has really got me thinking on this subject! I was just going post just a few observations of mine; but maybe I'll go through all of the Manga and Anime, and see what I can find. (I'll be here until next century!)
|
|
ladyjanegrey
Full Member
"I GOTTA keep it together!"
Posts: 171
|
Post by ladyjanegrey on Feb 22, 2009 20:11:25 GMT -5
Me, again! I found some more interesting info, this time having to do with our favorite VILLAIN! Ku ku ku ...! Naraku Is NOT a Baboon! I know, I know! If the translations are accurate, even Takahashi-sama apparently calls him that. However, there are a few facts in evidence against his being a baboon. 1.The baboon is not a primate native to Japan. In fact it is not even found on the continent of Asia. It is only in Africa that baboons exist in the wild. 2.I suspect, although I was not able to find any evidence, that the Japanese had little or no knowledge of the existence of such creatures at the time that the story of InuYasha takes place. 3.Japan has it's own native primate, which has a very ancient mythological lineage. This is, of course the famous Japanese “Snow Monkey,” or Japanese Macaque. It has a reputation as a guardian against demons, and can expel evil. The monkeys are servants and messengers of various kami of the mountains. Most legends show monkeys as good, although mischievous, spirits. (Hint: Three Sprites of the Monkey God!) So, there were probably a lot of saru-youkai running around at the time, acting on behalf of their divine masters. Although his disguise is identified as a white baboon, it is never stated that Naraku is a baboon, or monkey, demon. He is always identified with the spider. In fact his name, as the mortal bandit, was Onigumo, or spider ogre. Also, from the pictures in the manga, the figure looks like a macaque pelt, and not a baboon (see 56 Temporary Arm). I think, and this is just speculation of course, that after the shattering of the Shikon no Tama, Naraku had a run in with a monkey youkai. Perhaps one had gathered up one or more of the jewel shards to carry back to it's kami master. Naraku fought with the monkey youkai to get the shards from it and, when he killed it, skinned it and used it's pelt as a disguise from then on. When Naraku first appears, in the flesh, so to speak, during the meeting with Sesshoumaru, he is already wearing the monkey skin. And he seems to have a lot of jewel shards with him. It couldn't have been any earlier, because when Miroku tells the story of his grandfather and his battle with Naraku, sometime during the fifty years that InuYasha was sealed to the Goshinboku, he never is described as wearing a monkey pelt. I found a lot of interesting information on Japanese monkey lore on this site: www.onmarkproductions.com/html/monkey-koushin-p3.htmlAnd, there is some interesting facts about half way down the page under the info about the Shinto God Sarutahiko (monkey man). It tells how the goddess Ame-no-Uzume-no-Mikoto, after meeting him, founds an order of temple dancers. "The Sarume were primarily women who performed comic dances (saru-mahi, monkey dances) in honor of the Shinto Gods. They are mentioned along with the Nakatomi and Imbe as taking part in the festival of first-fruits and other Shinto ceremonies. These dances were the origin of the Kagura and the No performances" How's that for a coincidence!
|
|
|
Post by milareppa on Feb 23, 2009 10:54:42 GMT -5
I was a trained zoologist until ill-health stopped my career. When I first discovered the Inu Yasha anime (manga was discovered later), the translation of "baboon" drove the devil into me. I didn't (still don't) speak a word of Japanese, but my primatology knowledge suggested to me that this had to be a mistranslation of some description, since Naraku's pelt was very obviously a macaque pelt.
I wondered (still do actually) if the way Naraku covered himself had some kind of shamanic/witchcraft connotation. I do know that the Japanese monkey has a mythological connection to the balance between purity and impurity in the world. It is able to control, through mediation or trickery, the purity and impurity in the world around it - and within beings as well. For example, the monkey can keep humans pure by attracting impurity to itself, thus becoming the scapegoat for the impurities of others (so to speak).
When you consider how Naraku behaved, the way he would tease out impurity in others in order to absorb that impurity into the jewel to make the jewel and himself stronger, I have wondered if this sort of thing is the inspiration for Naraku's monkey-pelt connection.
|
|
ladyjanegrey
Full Member
"I GOTTA keep it together!"
Posts: 171
|
Post by ladyjanegrey on Feb 23, 2009 21:04:41 GMT -5
I was a trained zoologist until ill-health stopped my career. When I first discovered the Inu Yasha anime (manga was discovered later), the translation of "baboon" drove the devil into me. I didn't (still don't) speak a word of Japanese, but my primatology knowledge suggested to me that this had to be a mistranslation of some description, since Naraku's pelt was very obviously a macaque pelt. I wondered (still do actually) if the way Naraku covered himself had some kind of shamanic/witchcraft connotation. I do know that the Japanese monkey has a mythological connection to the balance between purity and impurity in the world. It is able to control, through mediation or trickery, the purity and impurity in the world around it - and within beings as well. For example, the monkey can keep humans pure by attracting impurity to itself, thus becoming the scapegoat for the impurities of others (so to speak). When you consider how Naraku behaved, the way he would tease out impurity in others in order to absorb that impurity into the jewel to make the jewel and himself stronger, I have wondered if this sort of thing is the inspiration for Naraku's monkey-pelt connection. Very interesting speculation! On the shamanism point, if I remember rightly, there was only three times that we actually saw Naraku in his monkey suit (haha!). The episode with Rouyakan, when Naraku captures Kikyou, and when he reabsorbs Muso/Onigumo. I think that's all. All the other times we see "Naraku" in the monkey disguise, it is a puppet! Many shamanistic traditions use puppets(or "poppets") in various magical workings (think Witches of Eastwick!). Obviously by this time Naraku is very powerful if he can use one to make a "clone" of himself. Also, shamans can split parts of their souls to create beings to act as servants or messengers. Naraku can literally do this physically, to create "servants," i.e. Kanna, Kagura, et al. What is also interesting, is that after Mt. Hakurei, once Naraku has his new body, he never appears in the monkey disguise again. Perhaps, with the power of the Shikon no Tama, he has gone beyond the mere "powers" of a shaman. You know that Shinto is a form of nature religion, and very full of shamanistic elements. In fact, a lot of the rituals that mikos do are shamanistic. Casting out evil spirits, giving blessings, and other things. There are even some that are supposed to act as the "wife" to the Kami they serve! That might put the Kikyou-InuYasha-Kagome triangle in another perspective! ;D
|
|
ladyjanegrey
Full Member
"I GOTTA keep it together!"
Posts: 171
|
Post by ladyjanegrey on Feb 23, 2009 21:21:01 GMT -5
Me again! heehee!
Another thought from milareppa's entry, about Naraku absorbing impurity into the jewel. Perhaps that is why he went around giving jewel shards out to various youkai. He knew they would use them for evil purposes, thus corrupting the shards all the more. Win or lose, he would get them back eventually, and have more power, without too much effort.
|
|
ladyjanegrey
Full Member
"I GOTTA keep it together!"
Posts: 171
|
Post by ladyjanegrey on Mar 8, 2009 1:27:25 GMT -5
I have returned! Sorry it took so long; I had difficulty polishing the next entry. Now I have more sympathy for all those writers out there! So here we go. Gentle Soul I had a thought awhile back about Jinenji. I've seen other threads speculating on what his father was. Most seen to decide on "horse" youkai, but I'm not sure I agree. (What would be horse demon in Japanese anyway?) I know he looks horseish (not horse-like), but there are some other animals that he looks similar to. To me, horses in most cultures, like Japan, are symbolical of war, although also fertility. They are supposedly fierce and aggressive, uncontrollable, and represent power. They are more connected with death, than with healing. In fact, one of the guardians of Hell is a horse-headed being. These are not attributes that Jinenji possesses. He is kind and gentle, and a bit of a coward. He is obviously still dependent on his mother. I suspect he is still very young, perhaps even a child, by youkai standards. The animal I think would be the best candidate for Jinenji's father is the Japanese Deer, or Sitka Deer. It is considered sacred, a messenger of the gods. It is one of the animals often shown accompanying the god of Long Life, Fukurokujin, because it supposedly could live over 2000 years. In other cultures deer would kill and eat poisonous snakes, and herbs and mushrooms to protect themselves from poisons and diseases, and give them long life. In fact, in Asian cultures, the Sages would eat herbs and mushrooms (and other things, Bleh ) to gain immortality. In the manga, the picture showing Jinenji's father helping his mother, he is holding a staff topped with plants and MUSHROOMS. That, and the obvious knowledge and skills with herbs he passed on to his son, make it most likely (I won't say for sure) that he was a deer youkai. Also, although deer are gentle, they can be strong and fierce, if necessary (killing snakes!). With InuYasha and Kagome’s help, Jinenji learns to fight and kill the evil youkai. But he remains kind and helpful, giving medicine to the injured villagers, who tried to kill him.
|
|
|
Post by milareppa on Mar 8, 2009 7:25:35 GMT -5
I didn't consider a deer, even though I knew of their healing and messenger connections.
I'll have to look into that, it's a fascinating thought.
Like you, I wasn't convinced by the horse theory either. I did wonder about earth connections, and there are some beings tha emit light. That's the other key thing for me - Jinenji's father emitted a blinding light. When Jinenji finally activated his powers to fight back against the monster, he started emitting the same light too. I think there may be a clue in that light - it must mean something, although I'm not sure what yet.
The only downside to the deer theory is the fact that Jinenji and Inuyasha, as hanyou, are half-transformed - and Jinenji sports not even a hint of antlers, which male sika do possess.
On the other hand, Shiori didn't particularly look half-transformed. Aside from her white hair and purple eyes, she looked complete human. No evidence of fangs, claws or wings at all.
|
|
ladyjanegrey
Full Member
"I GOTTA keep it together!"
Posts: 171
|
Post by ladyjanegrey on Mar 8, 2009 12:18:50 GMT -5
Hmm, I didn't remember the light. Perhaps Jinenji's father also had "spiritual" healing, as well as knowledge. Like Kikyou's and Kagome's powers, that might manifest it self as light. Or it might simply be similar to a kitsune's foxfire, a simple glow. As for antlers, as you say, a hanyou is only partly transformed, or perhaps it would be better to say they are only partly Formed. From what Jineji's mother said, you would never know how a hanyou child would come out. After all, InuYasha may have had the ears, but he didn't have the tail! (Mokomoko-sama! ) So Jinenji might never have antlers. Or, as I mentioned before, he might still be rather young, and not have reached that stage in his development. Shiori actually had two little horns (I think you could call them that) on top of her forehead, similar to what the bat youkai had. They weren't really obvious until you looked closely at her, so she did look very human. But even if it had just been her hair and eyes, if she was just totally human, people still would have been against her, because that's the way most people are. Thinking about the light again. If Jinenji's father had a human form, then perhaps he was more powerful than alot of regular youkai. Not a taiyoukai, like Sesshoumaru, but still strong with power. Don't like using the word "spiritual." It's a perfectly good word in this context, as I believe all youkai are manifestations of natural, or "nature" spirits. Trouble is, it's been hijacked to much as a synonym for "holy." (And most of those so called "Holy People" as less holy than I am! ) Which it ain't. Like a favarite hanyou of ours would say, "Keh!"
|
|
|
Post by milareppa on Mar 9, 2009 13:34:43 GMT -5
It was a glowing light. It's how Jinenji's mother realised he was a youkai. She fell down and hurt her ankle and he appeared. He was just a beautiful man, except for the light that surrounded him, which clued her into the fact that he wasn't human.
When I first saw Shiori, I thought that as well. However, they're not horns (even the bats barely have any horns - more like nubs). They're little ribbons - although rather unfortunately placed. However, in closer shots, you can see how RT has drawn them to show how they're tied to her hair.
We have no idea if Jinenji's father was a daiyoukai or not - we just didn't see enough of Jinenji to learn things like that. However, Jinenji's mother did refer to him as Jinenji's "Oyaji-dono" which was the same phrase Myouga and Bokusenou used when talking to Sesshoumaru and Inuyasha about their father. As a result, I think Jinenji's father must have had some significant social stature, which would have placed him above most youkai.
However, the same is true of Kouga - he has social and political power, but I would never call him a daiyoukai. I never got the impression he had that kind of power. He was certainly greater than the average youkai, but not equal to a daiyoukai (one thing I dislike about he anime filler where Sesshoumaru and Kouga meet is the episode's implication that Kouga is faster than Sesshoumaru - even with shards in his legs I really couldn't swallow that idea. And since the Bakusaiga arc, where it was revealed just how abnormal Sesshoumaru's abilities are, I'm convinced Kouga's simply nowhere near that league).
I've got the feeling that Jinenji's father could have been a daiyoukai, but since the manga doesn't tell us, I suppose it's up to us to decide according to our preferences.
I think Shiori's father and grandfather were daiyoukai as well - at least, Inuyasha had to use the same method to kill the grandfather as he'd used on Ryuukossei. Ryuukossei was a daiyoukai - he could be stabbed through the heart and still not die: in the end, he could only be killed by his own power (the Bakuryuuha turned his power back against him, and empowered it further with Tessaiga's strength). Even after Shiori threw her grandfather outside the barrier, Inuyasha still had to use Bakuryuuha.
It's as though the more powerful a youkai becomes, the more capable it is of caring for humans - I suppose that makes sense, given the arc where Sango had to fix Hiraikotsu, and Hiraikotsu, made as it was of lower youkai, told her that lower youkai were incapable of feeling the compassionate emotions humans experienced. I guess the more powerful a youkai is, the more human-like their hearts can become.
|
|
ladyjanegrey
Full Member
"I GOTTA keep it together!"
Posts: 171
|
Post by ladyjanegrey on Mar 10, 2009 19:37:38 GMT -5
I remember that Jinenji said something about his father leaving the land they live on to him. So his father must have had some control of the land around there. Although I think it was just the field. So it wasn't anything like, say, the control of the Western Lands by InuYasha's father. Some youkai may be emanations of, or have some sort of attachment to, a specific area. So Jinenji's father may have been a protective spirit of the land. More like a well-to-do land owner or lower noble, compared to a daiyoukai. Or, since they obviously live very simply, may he was just a simple farmer youkai! To bad we don't know what happened to him. Whether he left, or died, could have some bearing on his strength and stature. Shiori's grandfather may have been close to being a daiyoukai, but I think her father might not have been ready yet. I don't think that his father would have been able to just kill him, if he were just about as powerful; at least not easily. Daiyoukai, or not, grandfather obviously had no love for humans, and only considered them food. He only wanted Shiori to control the Blood Crystal, since he could no longer raise a barrier himself. Otherwise I suspect she and her mother would have died along with her father. Any youkai who falls in love with a human and has a child with them seems to meet a fateful end. InuYasha's father was mortally wounded by Ryukotsuse, Jinenji's father disappears, Shiori's father is murdered by his father.
|
|
|
Post by milareppa on Mar 11, 2009 16:28:31 GMT -5
Well, on the subject of Shiori's grandfather killing her father, it doesn't have to be a matter of power. Shiori's grandfather paid lipservice to honour, but he wasn't really that honourable when the chips were down. The fact that he killed Shiori's father doesn't tell us anything about their relative power levels because we don't know hoa Shiori's father died. It's my personal belief that Shiori's grandfather was not honourable about it. He probably caught his son off-guard.
I think there may have been a certain thread of naievte to Shiori's father with regards to his own kind. We know that he used the threat of his guardianship to keep his grandfather and his people in line. We don't know if he had any hope this threat would last in the long-run, but it would have been naive for him to believe that, I think - but if he didn't make any provision for the village, or at least his wife and child (and he couldn't have, since - while I don't know how old Shiori was when he died - a significant period of time had to have passed between Shiori's parents becoming an official couple and him being killed by his own father) then I tend to fall down on the side that believes he thought his threat could work. I don't think it would have occurred to him that his father would actually turn on him so completely - because he was the guardian, he certainly couldn't be buried, but as long as he had an heir, his life could be made forfeit.
On the subject of Jinenji. From his mother's flashback, we do get a sketchy image of the father - and I got the impression he was wearing clothes associated with someone more highly ranked than a commoner. The manga certainly did say the plot of land he and mother lived on and worked was left to him by his father - but that doesn't reflect on the full scope of his father's abilities anymore than Tessaiga, as Dad's fang, reflects on Dad himself. It's an inheritance, and it keeps Jinenji comfortable, occupied and useful: but it doesn't really reflect on his father in terms of living, lifestyle and scope of influence.
I do interpret it as being a connection to the land, and, like Tessaiga was for Inuyasha, proof that his father understood what inheritance his son would need to best utilise his unique hanyou nature.
We also have no real idea what control Dad had over the western lands, or even what the scope of his territory was. We can make some assumptions, but we don't know a large amount of facts. I'm not sure we can compare physical territory, especially physical territory maintained by the offspring as a way of comparing the two fathers - after all, Jinenji might have only a small field in the grand scheme of things, but that's more territory than either Sesshoumaru or Inuyasha have, both of whom have none at all.
I suspect that youkai that love humans invite attack. Sesshoumaru felt his father's relationship with Inuyasha's mother was effectively a stain on the whole clan, a weakness. We've heard from Myouga that Tessaiga was forged to protect Inuyasha's mother (although that seemed to be only a small part of the truth), which at least gives us the impression that Inuyasha's mother was in danger - and since Tessaiga's focus is on killing youkai to protect humans, we can assume it was youkai threatening her life, rather than humans. My imagination does tend to link this threat and Ryukossei together - although even if that's true, I would doubt the enmity between the two would begin with Inuyasha's mother, so much as come to a head because of it.
I think youkai have to be of high social rank and power to even get away with taking a human lover and producing a hanyou offspring. Even if it goes badly for them, it might be what gives these hanyou offspring a chance to survive. We've seen that both Inuyasha and Shiori are unusually powerful - even by youkai standards. It wasn't stated, but it was implied in the way Jinenji took on his youkai opponent, that Jinenji is probably the same.
I can't help feeling that Jinenji's mother's comments about how it cannot be predicted what appearance hanyou will take also applies to strength of a hanyou (and perhaps even to a hanyou's natural agespan too). That way, a hanyou son of a daiyoukai might easily be stronger than many full-blooded non-daiyoukai youkai. It would certainly explain a lot about Inuyasha - really, the only one who is capable of surpassing him is his own brother, and that simply because Sesshoumaru has a full-blooded daiyoukai heritage, instead of half one.
Even among youkai of the same status (daiyoukai, for example) that doesn't mean everyone's equal. Even if all daiyoukai are more powerful than normal youkai of their own kind, when compared to each other, one daiyoukai might easily be more powerful than other daiyoukai... I get the impression that was the case with Dad (and Ryuukossei). It's entirely possible that Shiori and Jinenji's fathers were both daiyoukai but still not of comparable power and ability to Dad - this is how I tend to look at it, anyway.
It's like looking at Kouga when compared to other youkai. Kouga's very powerful and superior to many other youkai we've seen. But I tend to view him as a "higher youkai" - he may be superior to "lower youkai" but he's still a youkai rather than a daiyoukai. He may surpass most other youkai around, but he'll never be Sesshoumaru's equal... I don't think he's even Inuyasha's equal, especially by the end of the manga.
I did forget the fact that Shippou's a daiyoukai as well. I don't think Inuyasha used that word lightly when he told Shippou that he'd grow up to be a daiyoukai one day, so I do think that's true, and was implied by the way Shippou was so swiftly climbing through the Kitsune examination ranks, even despite the fact he'd been separated from Kitsune society for almost a year (having the companions he had clearly had helped him, even if he'd missed out on formal Kitsune training).
|
|
ladyjanegrey
Full Member
"I GOTTA keep it together!"
Posts: 171
|
Post by ladyjanegrey on Mar 12, 2009 15:57:15 GMT -5
What you say seems totally logical.
About Inu-papa, he may have been a super daiyoukai. Myouga says he was "a strong and imposing youkai lord," which seems to indicate he had great power and presence. Both his sons have great power. Although not one now, Sesshoumaru may well become a daiyoukai in the future. And InuYasha, although a hanyou, is obviously stronger than common youkai, even stronger than many powerful youkai. And with practice may become stronger in the future.
Finally, Kaede makes an interesting comment when she first learns about InuYasha's heritage. She says that she remembers hearing about his father, that "he was a monstrous dog that prowled the lands to the West." Now if a "small town" miko like Kaede has heard about Inu-papa so far away from his "territory," and roughly 100?, 200? years after his death, then he must have great influence, and the memory of his power and prestige obviously lasted for a long time.
He was more than just a legend.
|
|
|
Post by milareppa on Mar 12, 2009 20:33:41 GMT -5
Yes, that was what I was thinking. Although, I'd have to say that Sesshoumaru is definitely a daiyoukai. If he wasn't one at the start of the manga, then Bakusaiga's manifestation is what made him one. Remember Toutousai's admonishment to him - that he had to stand on his own as a true daiyoukai. Bakusaiga was the moment he came into his true power. Before then, he'd merely been a walking bag of unrealised potential - and, while obsessing over external sources of power (Tessaiga, Toukijin, Meidou Zangetsuha), completely incapable of achieving the heights he obviously instinctively felt he was capable of reaching (I tend to think his obsession with Tessaiga was born from the frustation of sensing his potential but being unable to grasp it - and being clueless as to why he couldn't "make it"). Bakusaiga was his "rite of passage".
|
|