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Post by proserpina on Jul 27, 2006 11:21:42 GMT -5
I haven't seen the chapters - only read the translations - but it seems Sesshoumaru's mom is a bit ... unbalanced? "Oh, I TOLD him not to go!" She sounds kinda like a nut to me, so maybe that's why she's been out of the picture for so long. Any thoughts? Does Takahashi have something else in mind for Mrs Inu, or is she just a quick fix for the whole Meidou question?
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Post by ranuel on Jul 31, 2006 17:52:43 GMT -5
She seems a bit mental to me as well. She is very much a wild card in the story.
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Post by Sazuko on Jul 31, 2006 20:17:15 GMT -5
Hmm. I think that this fits in with your question so here goes:
When his mother says, "Sesshoumaru...it's you, isn't it?" (or words to that effect), it rather implies that she doesn't know him all that well - that she maybe hasn't seen him for a while. Since he was a child, perhaps?? Unfortunately we haven't much Inupapa info. to go on in the manga, but from the way Sesshoumaru talks about him one gets the sense that they at least had something of a relationship. Now, i'm not one who wants to read all sorts of angst into Sess.'s character - in fact i think that would be a mistake - but maybe his mum just wasn't around when he was a kid. Did she take off? Is that why Inupapa ended up with Izayoi?? Vice versa??
Anyway, like i say - no angsty interpretations. I do feel sorry for Mokomoko-sama, though. His mum's a bit dodgy, his dad is dead, his half-brother got the fancy sword and he's supposed to go on some kind of journey of self-discovery (through hell, no less) in order to make Tenseiga work for him.
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Post by saiyashamaru on Aug 2, 2006 17:34:49 GMT -5
Hmm. I think that this fits in with your question so here goes: When his mother says, "Sesshoumaru...it's you, isn't it?" (or words to that effect), it rather implies that she doesn't know him all that well - that she maybe hasn't seen him for a while. Since he was a child, perhaps?? Unfortunately we haven't much Inupapa info. to go on in the manga, but from the way Sesshoumaru talks about him one gets the sense that they at least had something of a relationship. Now, i'm not one who wants to read all sorts of angst into Sess.'s character - in fact i think that would be a mistake - but maybe his mum just wasn't around when he was a kid. Did she take off? Is that why Inupapa ended up with Izayoi?? Vice versa?? Anyway, like i say - no angsty interpretations. I do feel sorry for Mokomoko-sama, though. His mum's a bit dodgy, his dad is dead, his half-brother got the fancy sword and he's supposed to go on some kind of journey of self-discovery (through hell, no less) in order to make Tenseiga work for him. apparently, that's the way it looks. I wonder if there will be more insight on Sesshy's past with his mom appearing and stuff. But something tells me that his mother is weird.
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echolalia
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Goofy Gaijin
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Post by echolalia on Aug 18, 2006 16:36:23 GMT -5
When his mother says, "Sesshoumaru...it's you, isn't it?" (or words to that effect), it rather implies that she doesn't know him all that well - that she maybe hasn't seen him for a while. [snipping] As best I remember, the simplest definition of "youkai" is something like, "A supernatural force, usually malevolent." I'm not surprised Sessmom isn't over-running with the milk of maternal cuddliness. In fact, her behaviour wouldn't surprise me too much if she was human. It offends modern Western sensibilities, but try to maintain some notion of context. Around the world, even in the west, many marriages were and are still arranged for mutual political or economic benefit. The children born from such unions were often raised by hired help, and were essentially strangers to their parents and vice versa. Divorced from the bonds of familial affection, these children became -- were often conceived for the precise purpose of being -- assets in the political market. So when you look at Sessmom and Inupapa, don't expect to see a romantic story. It's equally likely that that was a union of political advantages, and Sesshoumaru is little more to her than a tool she might find a use for some day -- and that doesn't make her a nutjob, just a perfectly reasonable product of a different culture. Of course, nothing says we have to like her for it. ;) I'm waiting to see if Sessmom's thinking she could get something out of this. Heh. Yah, you know you've got it rough when you *literally* have to go through Hell. :D
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Post by Sazuko on Aug 19, 2006 22:48:34 GMT -5
Echolalia wrote: "It offends modern Western sensibilities, but try to maintain some notion of context. Around the world, even in the west, many marriages were and are still arranged for mutual political or economic benefit. The children born from such unions were often raised by hired help, and were essentially strangers to their parents and vice versa. Divorced from the bonds of familial affection, these children became -- were often conceived for the precise purpose of being -- assets in the political market."
Good point and definitely worth remembering in the context of Sesshoumaru's parents. Sess.' mother doesn't actually offend my sensibilities. Indeed, having her dote over her son would probably make for an awkward situation. I think it's fitting that she's cold (though at one point she refers to him as "my precious son," albiet that she later seems to think he is being something of a fool...). Would we really want Sesshoumaru's mother to be the wear-a-warm-coat-and-pack-clean-socks type?? This whole arc is dedicated to a journey which Sess. has to take on his own, afterall.
'Do not forsake me, oh Tenseiga....'
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Post by saiyashamaru on Aug 20, 2006 21:25:34 GMT -5
Echolalia wrote: "It offends modern Western sensibilities, but try to maintain some notion of context. Around the world, even in the west, many marriages were and are still arranged for mutual political or economic benefit. The children born from such unions were often raised by hired help, and were essentially strangers to their parents and vice versa. Divorced from the bonds of familial affection, these children became -- were often conceived for the precise purpose of being -- assets in the political market." Good point and definitely worth remembering in the context of Sesshoumaru's parents. Sess.' mother doesn't actually offend my sensibilities. Indeed, having her dote over her son would probably make for an awkward situation. I think it's fitting that she's cold (though at one point she refers to him as "my precious son," albiet that she later seems to think he is being something of a fool...). Would we really want Sesshoumaru's mother to be the wear-a-warm-coat-and-pack-clean-socks type?? This whole arc is dedicated to a journey which Sess. has to take on his own, afterall. 'Do not forsake me, oh Tenseiga....' Basically, I wouldn't be surprised if Sessmom just gave birth to him and the next day she up and left. It's obvious that he has a stronger relationship with his father. Usually, it was customary in feudal Japan that if the wife betrayed the husband, not only will she face death at his hands, the first thing he'll do is take his son with him and leave his daughters with his wife's family. And yes, alot of marriages were arranged to secure lands and craqp like that. Even today in Japan, if there is a divorce, the wife loses all rights. And if there are children involved, the husband can take the children away from her. Or if he choses to let her have the kids, he has no financial obligation towards her or the kids. That's why there are many divorced Japanese women that choose to continue living with their exes so then she doesn't lose the kids. It's not like in the Western world.
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Post by saiyashamaru on Aug 20, 2006 21:27:24 GMT -5
Echolalia wrote: " I think it's fitting that she's cold (though at one point she refers to him as "my precious son," albiet that she later seems to think he is being something of a fool...). Would we really want Sesshoumaru's mother to be the wear-a-warm-coat-and-pack-clean-socks type?? ' That would be funny though.
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Post by sesshoumaru1 on Apr 18, 2008 21:21:57 GMT -5
Well for me a female mind is really difficult to understand.. and she's a S-grade demon to top that
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Post by ravenhallowryn on Jun 20, 2008 11:37:45 GMT -5
Well for me a female mind is really difficult to understand.. and she's a S-grade demon to top that somebody has been reading/watching Yuu Yuu Hakusho... XDD Anyway, I agree with the polical marriage thing since there's that whole pure-blood question going on, and from Sessh upbringing we can see how much he values that. Though I don't exactly think she wasn't around, by the way she acts it seems more like he left voluntarily and she does seem to harbor some sort of maternal instinct, though she seems more like the selfish-snob-wanna-be-proud mom type. And a very indeferent one at that. On the other hand something else bothers me: The way she speaks of Sessh's father makes me believe there was (and still his on her part) a certain amount of respect, trust and care for each other. However she does not seem to care that Sessh's father got involved with Izayoi (who he seemed to acknowledge as his true wife though I doubt they truly were), she just seems stingy on the youkai-human thing. Plus she and Shess dad are VERY similar in looks. Given all this and the pureblood issue, isn't it possible that besides a political agreement of sorts, Sessh's mom and dad might have been related by blood in some way? Given the time (heck it even happens today in some countries) isn't it possible that they belonged to same clan (cousins, stepbrothers, brothers, or something else) ?
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ladyjanegrey
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"I GOTTA keep it together!"
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Post by ladyjanegrey on Jan 10, 2009 20:36:21 GMT -5
I don't know if anybody is still watching this thread, but I had to put down my own thoughts.
Perhaps I just read things differently, but I never felt that Sess-mom was actually being "cold" towards Sesshoumaru. She impressed me as having a similar, though not quite the same, personality as her son (Jaken in fact coments on this). Her comment about him visiting her, it's like when a collage student comes home so his mother will clean his dirty laundry! ("Is that the only reason your here?") But she obviously has more of a sense of (acerbic) humor, the way she seems to enjoy pushing his buttons (do you intend to eat those children?). And of course, Jaken just asks to be put upon!
Her relationship with Inu-papa must have had some depth to it; I can't see him leaving the Meidou-seki with her, unless he had great trust in her discretion to use it at the proper time and in the proper way. Also, he apparently tried to let her know not to worry about what would happen, so he must have cared sbout her feelings, at least about her son. And she must have had trust in Iun-papa to be willing to use the Meido-seki.
In the pics of her in the manga, after Sesshoumaru went to Hell, she seemed almost weary. Her seeming indifference was just a mask. Although she seemed to talk down to Jaken, I think she understood his loyalty to Sesshoumaru, and telling him what was going on in Hell, was to keep his spirits (and her own) up. If she didn't care, she would have ignored him. And when Sesshoumaru refused to return when she opened the Meidou, she really seemed not just angry, but upset. You know how mothers react: "fine, be that way!" But they do care.
But in the end she acted more as a mother might; she pretended not to care, but she brought Rin back to life, if only for her son's sake. And when she learned more about Kohaku, although she could not help him, she showed him compassion.
This is my own speculation, but perhaps it is the way of inu-youkai to test their offspring, see if they can survive in the harsh world of youkai. InuYasha's whole life, especially during and after he and Kagome went after Tessaiga, seemed to be testing his strength, courage, and his compassion for others. It's not that they don't care about their children, but they need to be cruel to be kind. Seeshoumaru seems to have no compassion, until he learns to care for Rin. The Meidou was not so much to perfect Tenseiga, since it is lost in the end, but to test Sesshoumaru's strength, and his character and maturity.
In fact, the plot made me think of the story of the Shishi, the Japanese lion-dog. How the mother would throw her pups over a cliff, and watch as they climbed back up, to prove they had the strength to be spiritual guardians.
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Sayuri
Junior Member
Chasing A Dream
Posts: 60
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Post by Sayuri on Jan 11, 2009 16:35:14 GMT -5
That's a fantastic perspective on it. I just wanted to add a few points (speculation) of my own:
1. She didn't seem surprised at all to see two human kids with her son, even if she did goad him a bit on it. I found this very interesting.
2. I've noticed that all of Inu-Papa's friends don't seem to have the dislike of humans that Sesshomaru does at the start. In fact, a lot of them seem to praise Inuyasha for his humanity. Sesshomaru even comments when we first meet him that he didn't inherit his father's soft spot for humans. Given that his sons want to surpass him, it makes sense that not only would they need to surpass him in power, but in compassion and conscience as well, which is something I think neither of them considered much at all as the series started.
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ladyjanegrey
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Post by ladyjanegrey on Jan 13, 2009 19:47:00 GMT -5
It IS interesting. In fact, maybe Sess-Mom was more into her son's life than he knew. You know how mom's are, sticking their noses into their kid's businesses without them knowing!
And as for the youkai, look at Toutou-sai and Myouga especially. In spite of the charges of cowardliness against both of them, they both go out of their way to assist InuYasha and the gang. Toutou-sai tests InuYasha, and repairs Tessaiga, and tells him about it's upgrades. And Myouga gives them the benefit of his "hidden wisdom." And he even saves their lives. In fact, I feel that poor Myuoga is always getting a bum rap. He's just a flea, for goodness sake!
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Post by milareppa on Jan 18, 2009 12:23:03 GMT -5
You're not the only one that thinks like that, ladyjanegrey.
That legend of the shishi is exactly how I've been viewing the dog-youkai as well. I've been convinced since I started reading this manga that the shishi and koma-inu have been a source of inspiration for the creation of the dog-youkai, and this legend really does explain a lot about Inuyasha's whole family.
The tests Sesshoumaru's father has put Sesshoumaru through have, at times, been incredibly harsh - so much so, that eventually, even Inuyasha's group are forced to comment on how cruelly Dad seems to have treated Sesshoumaru (the Shishinki arc) - and Sesshoumaru's mother doesn't shirk in pushing such tests on him either.
Through it all, Sesshoumaru never complains, and indeed appears to push Inuyasha just as hard in return. It would mean that Sesshoumaru's parents push him only as much as he needs to be pushed in order to achieve his full potential. If the methods his parents have to resort to become downright cruel at times, then that's only a measure of just how much Sesshoumaru (who has obviously walked down the wrong path in life) needs to be pushed in order to get back onto the right path.
Sesshoumaru's mother never struck me as cold either. When she first arrived, I thought she seemed quite pleased to see him (and doesn't a mother feel relieved to still be useful to her growing children). I also thought she was testing him when she asked about his intentions towards the human children. Given his question about Meidou Zangetsuha and the test she was about to put him through, she really had to find out what his attachment to the children was - and the best way to do that is to attack his ego. We've seen that plenty of times in the manga, that his ego can be a weakness of his. She obviously knows that. I thought his reaction, a scowled "ridiculous" was because he realised she was simply teasing him, and wasn't going to rise to the bait (as was that later wonderful expression on his face when he replied "the thought never crossed my mind" when she asks him if he's hesitating).
I also agree that Dad showed great faith in her ability to carry out his wishes after his death. And her actions proved she had great faith in his wisdom in the matter. He had warned her that Sesshoumaru's test might be very dangerous, and she passed that warning on to Sesshoumaru - but she was unflinching in carry out his wishes. She was clearly very loyal.
It was only when she realised that Sesshoumaru really was motivated by an attachment to the girl that she began to get worried, specifically when she told Sesshoumaru he'd gone soft, when she questioned his motive for entering the meidou, I think she was hoping that by attacking his ego - in this case, pointing out it's blatently obvious he cares about the human girl when he's prided himself in the past on hating humans - he would not throw himself into danger.
Jaken complained that she hadn't told Sesshoumaru not to go into the meidou, when she complained Sesshoumaru ignored her wishes - but I think that's exactly what she was doing when she accused him of going soft. We know - Naraku's outright observed - that Sesshoumaru cannot be given orders. His own mother would know that, so she wouldn't order him, it would just make him stubborn - instead, she tries to attack his ego, trying to shame him into backing out of going in the hope he doesn't want to be accused of being attached to humans. It's when she fails (thus revealing the strength of Sesshoumaru's attachment) that she has her emotional outburst - which seems pure worry and frustration that her son is getting himself into more trouble than he can handle. Given her comment about the shape of the crescent when she first saw it (she seemed distinctly unimpressed), I can understand her worry - he simply wasn't displaying enough proof of compassion, and his true weakness was the strength of his compassionate heart (Sesshoumaru misinterpreted Toutousai's advice to "strengthen" the sword as one of physical strength, when Toutousai really meant his compassionate heart need to be strengthened). If he didn't find the compassion within him, that test would have been a disaster. I think that was her great worry: just how compassionate had he become? She wasn't sure - but she knew how much it mattered for this test.
I agree she was a very compassionate individual. I don't think she could ever have been given the duty to teach such an important lesson about compassion and mercy if she herself wasn't a compassionate and merciful individual. However, just like the shishi folklore, a mother has to give her child harsh tests if he is to grow strong. We have a saying over here too, one that fits perfectly: you've got to be cruel to be kind.
As to the purpose of Meidou Zangetsuha - I think the point of Sesshoumaru being given that power was to help him master Tenseiga in the first instance (there was no other way for him to learn true compassion and thus master the ultimate technique of saving a hundred lives with single swing than by giving him the carrot (and red herring) of masting a lethal battle technique). Even more importantly than that, however, was the battle with Shishinki (only a few short days after Rin had died too, talk about emotional rollercoaster) where Sesshoumaru was forced to face the truth once and for all - that he and Inuyasha (Tessaiga and Tenseiga) are forever bound. I think he misinterpreted the situation as slavery (Tenseiga was the servant to Tessaiga's mastery) when the meidou battle subsequently revealed the truth - Tenseiga isn't Tessaiga's servant, it's Tessaiga's guide; and that's what Sesshoumaru has to be for Inuyasha. I also think it was important for Sesshoumaru to show he was capable of giving up a power he had sacrificed so much to master. If he wasn't capable of sacrificing something that mattered so much to him then he could never have been entrusted with a power like Bakusaiga.
I've noticed too. Sesshoumaru has been obsessed with overcoming weakness and possessing only strength. But - right up until his sacrifice of Meidou Zangetsuha, I think - Sesshoumaru has been blinded by the idea of physical strength, that it's the only thing that matters. He and Naraku have had something in common - they've both been trying to exorcise the weakness of their emotional hearts, and both ended up learning that they could find strength in that emotional heart. Obviously, their paths (and uses for such lessons) were completely different, but they've had some surprising similarities as well. I think he probably saw the situation between Dad and Inuyasha's mother as the ultimate proof that his attitude (exorcise attachments, compassion, etc) was correct. Inuyasha was, in effect, proof that his great father had failed to live up to his standards. Given how much Sesshoumaru respected his father, that must have been an intolerable thought - it never occurred to him that perhaps it wasn't his father that failed, but that his understanding of strength and weakness was flawed.
If there's one thing Rin taught him above all else, it's that strength does not have to be physical. He was at his weakest when he met Rin, he couldn't even move. But Rin was beaten up by the very people who were supposed to look after her - and yet she was still smiling. *That* is strength (at that moment, I think she was much stronger than he was). It allowed him to eventually start seeing the true strength in Inuyasha. Yes, Inuyasha will always be physically weaker than Sesshoumaru, but that doesn't make him weak. And yet Sesshoumaru, with all of his great physical strength, was being constantly railroaded by physically weaker individuals, manipulated by others - because he'd allowed himself be consumed by an obsession that had utterly stunted his development in life (I think his moment of realising this once and for all was after Shishinki - when Byakuya approached him on the cliff edge with Kanna's mirror shards. He realised he could see merit in walking into Naraku's trap because it would allow him to finally break free of his weakness).
Sesshoumaru had to learn what true strength and true weakness was.
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ladyjanegrey
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Post by ladyjanegrey on Jan 20, 2009 21:23:08 GMT -5
milareppa: you put that very well. I think Sesshoumaru still needs to develop a sense of humor though. Or maybe he has. With having to put up with someone like Jaken following him around all the time, you would think he would need one.
(You wouldn't happen to have a P.H.D. in Psychiatry lying around somewhere, would you?) ;P
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